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Nitch
03-25-09, 10:36 AM
To start I am not a fear monger, or a conspiracy theorist. I am an average 26yo College grad that grew up in a big city and has a reasonable disposition on most things.

As of late I have been researching the financial markets and following what is currently happening with this recession/depression. Amongst the reading I will come across a few Doomsday promoters. ( http://www.marketskeptics.com )
Saying that the dollar will hyperinflate, and markets break down. Big cities like Detroit will hit unemployment of 20%, and units like CCMRF will be deployed to control the chaos( http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/03/army.unit/ ).

Now I personally do not believe it will get this bad, but I also know that it is best to at least consider what to do if it does. No one likes to get caught with their pants down.

So I was contemplating ways to preserve the bubble of Tallahassee if things were to go bad. Which led me to consider a Tallahassee militia. The way I see it, the TM would serve a multitude of functions.

1. Peace keeping, only beyond what local law enforcement can handle on its own, and always subservient to LE within reason.
2. Seed Bank. Maintain, collect and protect seeds and food stores.
3. Wealth reserves. Bank like system that handles tangible wealth of the citizenry, like gold and silver.

Now I do realize that there are a lot of issues with this, like over zealous members. But that's why I wanted to bring it up here. I wanted to hear this groups positive ideas, and negative concepts. Mainly because if there is a day when this is needed, I figured that the members of these forums would be a part of it. Please let me know what you think.

Rumbler
03-25-09, 11:49 AM
Problem is, as I see it, right at the root: "Preserving the Tallahassee bubble".

The root of State government is here. That means a whole lot of people who HAVE TO GO to stand any chance of fixing the problems that causes such a group (Tallahassee Militia) to need formed in the first place.


Secondly, and on a slightly more positive note . . . in the event of a SHTF scenario, you need people you can believe unequivocally can:

A) be trusted with your life
B) Share a common ideology at least to the point that goals and dedication to them are shared.
C) Contribute skills necessary to sustenance of the group.


In a nutshell; forming such a group - out of the general population - would have to be so arduously discriminatory, it would most likely be illegal to do in the current legal framework.

In closing; I agree 100% conceptually with you. But taking the concept from paper to pavement . . . I'm not so sure about.:o

lonesouth
03-25-09, 11:52 AM
Groups like rotary are discriminatory...btw...I think you only have to play the PC game if you receive public funding or other government aid.

Rumbler
03-25-09, 11:55 AM
Groups like rotary are discriminatory...btw...I think you only have to play the PC game if you receive public funding or other government aid.


That is a big plus! :D


I'm liking the idea of regular get together of TGF folks better and better. I liked it just fine to start with, but factoring in the fact that this group - and the type of folks likely to join this group - is probably the best bet for finding folks you may in fact be able to trust your life with in a SHTF scenario. :cool:

whitecl0ver
03-25-09, 11:56 AM
There are plenty of discriminatory groups...But if white guys starts one it's racist....of any other race does it...well thats Ok....

Tack Driver
03-25-09, 03:07 PM
There are such things as Patriots that are not white, you know. ;)

I can't tell you how many times I have had this discussion in the last few months. I'm all in favor of an armed and trained citizenry ready for whatever. From natural disasters to the protection of liberty, you can't depend on the government for it.

You don't believe me? Just look at the Superdome during Katrina. You can bet, with or without a Tallahassee Militia, my family will live free, and will not live like this:

http://www.nerdylorrin.net/jerry/Katrina/photos/Katrina-NewOrleansSuperdomeSat3Sept-MoreTrash+StillWaiting2BEvacd-Reuters-ShannonStapleton.jpg

NMCv2.0
03-25-09, 03:30 PM
the paperwork that goes with Florida CCW permits says that it is a felony to conduct or recieve "paramilitary training". So militias are essentially illegal in our great state

silkyjla30
03-25-09, 03:34 PM
the paperwork that goes with Florida CCW permits says that it is a felony to conduct or recieve "paramilitary training". So militias are essentially illegal in our great state

Not completely,

You can still be in a "militia," but like you said, you cannot operate as a paramilitary unit. Freedom of association protects that.

Tally XD
03-25-09, 03:43 PM
To start I am not a fear monger, or a conspiracy theorist. I am an average 26yo College grad that grew up in a big city and has a reasonable disposition on most things.

As of late I have been researching the financial markets and following what is currently happening with this recession/depression. Amongst the reading I will come across a few Doomsday promoters. ( http://www.marketskeptics.com )
Saying that the dollar will hyperinflate, and markets break down. Big cities like Detroit will hit unemployment of 20%, and units like CCMRF will be deployed to control the chaos( http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/03/army.unit/ ).

If we keep going like we are I believe the dollar will be worthless in just a few years.


Now I personally do not believe it will get this bad, but I also know that it is best to at least consider what to do if it does. No one likes to get caught with their pants down.
Racer1269 will disagree with you on this :D


So I was contemplating ways to preserve the bubble of Tallahassee if things were to go bad. Which led me to consider a Tallahassee militia. The way I see it, the TM would serve a multitude of functions.

1. Peace keeping, only beyond what local law enforcement can handle on its own, and always subservient to LE within reason.
2. Seed Bank. Maintain, collect and protect seeds and food stores.
3. Wealth reserves. Bank like system that handles tangible wealth of the citizenry, like gold and silver.

Now I do realize that there are a lot of issues with this, like over zealous members. But that's why I wanted to bring it up here. I wanted to hear this groups positive ideas, and negative concepts. Mainly because if there is a day when this is needed, I figured that the members of these forums would be a part of it. Please let me know what you think.

I have also been looking into this in a less "militia" sort of way but more of a training kind of aspect. Turns out, Florida has a law against forming a militia of any kind and it is criminal for two or more to gather together in purposes of training.

You can have the mmilitia, or "club" but you cannot train together and you cannot demonstrate or gather without a "permit" to parade.

So, I would still like to have training sessions with groups of locals, but, it would be against the law to do so.

trapper
03-25-09, 03:44 PM
As I see it, if the SHTF there will be no one to enforce the laws/no laws to enforce.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the "people" to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Federal Law is supreme over any state regulation. That being said....TGF Militia anyone?

Tally XD
03-25-09, 03:57 PM
As I see it, if the SHTF there will be no one to enforce the laws/no laws to enforce.

True, but, waiting till the SHTF is a little too late to start training.



"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the "people" to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Key word . . . Regulated. That means government regulation and that means Army/US Forces.


Federal Law is supreme over any state regulation. That being said....TGF Militia anyone?

No its not. State weapons/firearms laws trump federal laws.

Tack Driver
03-25-09, 03:57 PM
We need a lawyer to help us work through the legal minefield that we are getting into.



Tally, do you have the statute that says it's illegal to train? I would think that would be constitutionally protected.

Rumbler
03-25-09, 03:58 PM
I'm not saying you are wrong. But there *has to be* a loophole in that law I would think.

Otherwise, training like for instance, that which Rick offers this GROUP or Talon Training offers this GROUP would be illegal.

. . don't you think? :confused:

Now I can see the po-po having a hissy fit if we all get together and start practicing live fire tactical exercises in the forest or something but . .

I dunno. I find that information not only surprising but very troubling if it's "real".

You can't get a much more fundamental Constitutional right than forming a well regulated (PRACTICED is the modern translation of the parlance of the time!) militia. In fact, never mind, IF this is really the case, I don't want to know about it. It really could prove to be the last straw for me. :mad::mad:





. . .
I have also been looking into this in a less "militia" sort of way but more of a training kind of aspect. Turns out, Florida has a law against forming a militia of any kind and it is criminal for two or more to gather together in purposes of training.

You can have the mmilitia, or "club" but you cannot train together and you cannot demonstrate or gather without a "permit" to parade.

So, I would still like to have training sessions with groups of locals, but, it would be against the law to do so.

lonesouth
03-25-09, 04:00 PM
Is it illegal for floridians to be part of a militia and train in georgia?

NMCv2.0
03-25-09, 04:06 PM
Check out this video, this could be illegal in Florida under State law?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Nqj3dRcsE

trapper
03-25-09, 04:14 PM
"Key word . . . Regulated. That means government regulation and that means Army/US Forces." -TallyXD


"Regulated" in 2nd ammendment does not necesasairly mean government intervention. It can be construed as having adequate arms/weapons, adequate leadership. The Supreme court has not ruled on (to my knowledge) what "regulated" is defined as, so the only way to know is to find out.(i.e get arrested, convicted, appeal to Supreme Court, Win). Also, the 2nd ammendment says, that right for the "people" (not the government) to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That means the people control the militia.

Just my .02

Tack Driver
03-25-09, 04:20 PM
Wait, Wait, Wait.

We are all already militia members. The Constitutional (U.S.) definition of the Militia is any able bodied citizen between 17-?? years of age.

Does anybody know a lawyer that believes in individual freedoms?

whitecl0ver
03-25-09, 04:33 PM
Check out this video, this could be illegal in Florida under State law?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Nqj3dRcsE

Thats looks like soo much freakin fun....

Rumbler
03-25-09, 04:33 PM
. . .
Does anybody know a lawyer that believes in individual freedoms?

ALL of them do. If you pay them enough.

silkyjla30
03-25-09, 04:35 PM
True, but, waiting till the SHTF is a little too late to start training.


Key word . . . Regulated. That means government regulation and that means Army/US Forces.



No its not. State weapons/firearms laws trump federal laws.

If regulated was referring to gov't control, then the national guard would be considered the "well-regulated militia." However, since the origin of it was to be a means of protecting right sof citizens from all forms of tyranny(including gov't), the gov'ts ability to regulate it should be extremely low by definition.

Tally XD
03-25-09, 04:46 PM
We need a lawyer to help us work through the legal minefield that we are getting into.
Tally, do you have the statute that says it's illegal to train? I would think that would be constitutionally protected.

Here is where I got my info. Lets look into it with more than one mind and see what we decipher.


The 2008 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 870
AFFRAYS; RIOTS; ROUTS; UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLIES View Entire Chapter

870.06 Unauthorized military organizations.--No body of persons, other than the regularly organized land and naval militia of this state, the troops of the United States, and the students of regularly chartered educational institutions where military science is a prescribed part of the course of instruction, shall associate themselves together as a military organization for drill or parade in public with firearms, in this state, without special license from the Governor for each occasion, and application for such license must be approved by the mayor and aldermen of the cities and towns where such organizations may propose to parade. Each person unlawfully engaging in the formation of such military organization, or participating in such drill or parade, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

History.--s. 15, ch. 1466, 1866; RS 2411; s. 10, ch. 5202, 1903; GS 3246; RGS 5077; CGL 7179; s. 1129, ch. 71-136; s. 1403, ch. 97-102.




The 2008 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 790
WEAPONS AND FIREARMS View Entire Chapter

790.29 Paramilitary training; teaching or participation prohibited.--

(1) This act shall be known and may be cited as the "State Antiparamilitary Training Act."

(2) As used in this section, the term "civil disorder" means a public disturbance involving acts of violence by an assemblage of three or more persons, which disturbance causes an immediate danger of, or results in, damage or injury to the property or person of any other individual within the United States.

(3)(a) Whoever teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that the same will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(b) Whoever assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(4) Nothing contained in this section shall be construed to prohibit any act of a law enforcement officer which is performed in connection with the lawful performance of his or her official duties or to prohibit the training or teaching of the use of weapons to be used for hunting, recreation, competition, self-defense or the protection of one's person or property, or other lawful use.

History.--s. 1, ch. 82-5; s. 164, ch. 83-216; s. 1220, ch. 97-102.

Nitch
03-25-09, 04:49 PM
Two Interesting reads.

Militia formed in Florida in 1994 in response to the Brady Bill

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/29/us/county-creates-militia-to-defend-gun-rights.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

1995 Article from Soldier of Fortune about the raising of a Michigan Militia and it legality, followed by a counter argument from the site author

http://www.constitution.org/col/sofonmil.htm

Check them out and let me know what you think.

trapper
03-25-09, 04:54 PM
All the state constitution says, is that its illegal to form/participate in a paramilitary organization if the intent is to break the law, or create a riot. The sole purpose of a milita is to protecet the constitution/ individual rights/ and maintain order. Not to incite a riot/ rob a bank/ hurt or kill people unjustly.

Rou
03-25-09, 05:17 PM
You guys can all get together and use your best reasoning to decipher the statute and still get it wrong. What a statute says and how the courts end up interpreting it can be 2 very different things. The law is what the courts end up saying is the law. That's why in law school you spend all your time reading judges opinions and not statutes. Sure we read a lot of statutes, but that's not what the bulk of our work entails. It can even differ from the legislative intent depending on which type of legal reasoning the judge uses at the time. And while lawyers are indeed expensive, most offer an hour free consultation prior to employing their services. And I'd bet you a six pack that the NRA has lawyers that already have a good bead on it. And you can be sure that to get it wrong in this day and age can do a number on your freedoms once you get the "felon" label attached to your name. Just a thought.

flyingk9
03-25-09, 06:19 PM
Thats looks like soo much freakin fun....
But sorely lacking in tactics.

Rumbler
03-25-09, 06:43 PM
Rou,

I think you have a very good point. I also think it bears keeping in mind that there is a distinct possibility of having to protect the Constitution from the government.

Working within a legal system working to work against any and all who would attempt to thwart whatever a career politician can come up with to protect their power is . . . problematic, at best.

I don't see how any rational human could not be clear on the facts as they stand today: This government does not want the population capable of . . .going against any decision it should make, forcibly.

Thus, expecting to be able to freely work within the legal system to develop any skilled group of people capable of defending something . . say just for argument's sake; The Constitution, seems . . . unrealistic.


Seems we all have some hard decisions to make in the near future. Will I be a "criminal" for the sake of preparing to defend my family, my way of life, the documents and principals this Nation was founded on . . . . ??

Tough choice. :ROFLMAO:


You guys can all get together and use your best reasoning to decipher the statute and still get it wrong. What a statute says and how the courts end up interpreting it can be 2 very different things. The law is what the courts end up saying is the law. That's why in law school you spend all your time reading judges opinions and not statutes. Sure we read a lot of statutes, but that's not what the bulk of our work entails. It can even differ from the legislative intent depending on which type of legal reasoning the judge uses at the time. And while lawyers are indeed expensive, most offer an hour free consultation prior to employing their services. And I'd bet you a six pack that the NRA has lawyers that already have a good bead on it. And you can be sure that to get it wrong in this day and age can do a number on your freedoms once you get the "felon" label attached to your name. Just a thought.

NMCv2.0
03-25-09, 08:49 PM
You're right Rumbler, and I asked the question before about CCW. If that were banned in the U.S., would you still carry? I debate that myself since I figure a CCW permit puts you first in line for confiscation. As for protecting the Constitution against the government, that's a complex issue IMO. From what I've read about Ruby Ridge and Waco, the government can legally KILL YOU if they feel you are getting out of line.

ironhead7544
03-25-09, 10:11 PM
Training for self defense is exempted. As long as your not training for illegal purposes its legal. Basic training in marksmanship is not effected. Also, it doesnt outlaw sitting around and telling war stories.

Tally XD
03-25-09, 10:29 PM
Training for self defense is exempted. As long as your not training for illegal purposes its legal. Basic training in marksmanship is not effected. Also, it doesnt outlaw sitting around and telling war stories.

Well, then why dont we do as we tried to do before and have some training?

Yagenrock attempted to put together a session and almost all of us missed our appointment.

One reason I didn't do it was because of location. I felt it too "odd" to do it in the middle of town.

If we could get together out somewhere remote, say around Havana, Monticello or Crawfordville I would be in.

Sweett
03-26-09, 12:47 AM
I think we need to consult some lawyers for this. I do not want this website under the "Radar" for conspiring to commit any crimes. I am going to close this thread until I can collect some legal information. Sweett